Individual Page

Person Info

• Name: Lucia Of East Angies
• Sex: F
• Birth: 1072 in Mercia, England ^b
• Death: 1138 ^d


Parents:

• Father:
  
• Thorold Of Buckingham, Sheriff Of Lincoln Death: Before 1079
Mother:

• (Unk Dau)

Family:
Marriage:

• Ivo TAILEBOIS on Before 1085 .^m1
  
• Ivo TAILEBOIS Death: Abt 1094

Marriage:

• Roger FITZ GEROLD on Abt 1093 .^m2
  
• Roger FITZ GEROLD Birth: Roumare, Seine-Maritime, Arr Rouen, Cant Maromme Death: Abt 1097

Children:

1. William Seigneur Of Roumare, Earl Of Lincoln Birth: Abt 1096 Death: Before 1161

Marriage:

• Ranulph III De MESCHINES, Earl Of Chester on Abt 1098 .^m3
  
• Ranulph III De MESCHINES, Earl Of Chester Death: Abt 17 Jan 1129

Children:

1. Ranulf De GERNON, Earl Of Chester, Vicomte D'Avranches Birth: Before 1100 in Castle Of Gernon, Normandy Death: Abt 16 Dec 1153 in Gresley, Derbyshire
2. Agnes Of Bayeux Birth: 1
3. Adeliza Le MESCHIN Birth: 2 Death: After 1148
4. Matilda Le MESCHIN

Bibliography

Sources for birth and parent Information

date:

[Ref: Hart PresidentWives p120],

place:

[Ref: Hart PresidentWives p120],

parents:

Thurold the Sheriff & dau William Malet [Ref: CP VII p746 (with corr in XIV p439)]

Turold the Sheriff & dau William Malet [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p1137, Keats-Rohan DD p247, Keats-Rohan DD p40, Keats-Rohan Lucy, Keats-Rohan Malet p53],

father:

[Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p228, Keats-Rohan DP p283, Richardson RoyalAnc v2p148]

Aelfgar Earl of Mercia or Thorold Sheriff of Lincoln [Ref: CP VII AppJ]

Aelfgar Earl of Mercia, or Thorold Sheriff of Lincolnshire [Ref: Sanders Baronies p18(1)]

Sources with Inaccurate birth and parent Information

parents:

Aelfgar Earl of East Anglia (#11386) & Aelfgifu (#11387) [Ref: Watney WALLOP #589, Watney WALLOP #673],

father:

Aelfgar (#11386) according to forged charter of Peterborough [Ref: Kay Allen SGM 10/2/1998-A]

Sources for death Information

date:

[Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p247, Sanders Baronies p18]

1136 [Ref: Hart PresidentWives p120]

abt 1136 [Ref: Holloway WENTWORTH p5]

living 1130 [Ref: Watney WALLOP #230, Weis AR7 #132A]

Sources with Information about marriage to Ivo TAILEBOIS

date:

before 1085 [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p247]

before 1086 [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p1137]

first marriage of Lucy [Ref: CP VI p498, CP VII AppJp743, Keats-Rohan DD p40, Richardson RoyalAnc v2p148, Sanders Baronies p18, Weis AR7 #132A, Weis AR7 #246B]

second marriage of Ivo [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p1121]

second marriage of Ivo and first of Lucy [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p42],

names:

[Ref: CP VII p677, Keats-Rohan DP p283, Watney WALLOP #589, Watney WALLOP #673]

Sources with Inaccurate marriage information

date:

1072 or 1073 according to forged charter of Peterborough [Ref: Kay Allen SGM 10/2/1998-A],

child:

Ethred Baron of Kendal (#14729) [Ref: Watney WALLOP #589]

Sources with Information about marriage to Roger FITZ GEROLD

date:

first marriage of Lucy [Ref: CP III p166]

second marriage of Lucy [Ref: CP VI p498, CP VII AppJp744, Keats-Rohan DD p40, Richardson RoyalAnc v2p148, Sanders Baronies p18, Weis AR7 #132A, Weis AR7 #246B]

soon after 1093, as second marraige of Lucy [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p895]

soon after death of Ivo [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p247],

names:

brother of Robert fitz Gerold & Lucy [Ref: Sanders Baronies p17(8)],

child:

[Ref: CP III p166, CP IV AppH p669, CP VII AppJp744, CP VII p667, CP VII p677, Keats-Rohan DD p237, Keats-Rohan DD p247, Keats-Rohan DD p40, Keats-Rohan DD p895, Sanders Baronies p17(8), Sanders Baronies p18]

Sources with Information about marriage to Ranulph III De MESCHINES, Earl Of Chester

date:

abt 1098 [Ref: Weis AR7 #132A]

abt 1098, as third marriage of Lucy [Ref: CP VII AppJp744, Sanders Baronies p18]

abt 1099/1100, as third marriage of Lucy [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p247]

second marriage of Lucy [Ref: CP III p166]

third marriage of Lucy [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p40, Keats-Rohan DP p283, Weis AR7 #246B],

child:

[Ref: CP III p166, CP IV AppH p669, CP VI p498, CP VII p673, CP VII p677, Farnham Pedigrees p11, Hart PresidentWives p120, Holloway WENTWORTH p5, Keats-Rohan DD p228, Keats-Rohan DD p247, Keats-Rohan DD p390, Keats-Rohan DD p40, Keats-Rohan DD p942, Richardson RoyalAnc v2p148, Richardson RoyalAnc v2p174, Wagner PedigreeProgress #48, Watney WALLOP #230, Weis AR7 #125, Weis AR7 #132A, Weis AR7 #132D, Weis AR7 #246B]

Research Notes:
widow of Ivo Taillebois and Roger Fitz Gerold [Ref: Weis AR7 #246B]

heiress (and possibly daughter) of Thorold Sheriff of Lincoln [Ref: Richardson RoyalAnc v2p148]

became the principal heir of the estates of William Malet [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p1022]

Lady Godiva, mother of Aelfgar, also listed as sister of Thorold Sheriff of Lincs [Ref: Weis AR7 #176A]

1129: (after death of third husband) rendered account in the Piep Roll not to marry again [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p247]

c.1135: founded the nunnery of Stixwould in Lincolnshire [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p247]

all that is certainly known is that she was a niece of Robert Malet of Eye and of Alan of Lincoln, and that Thorold the Sheriff was a kinsman [Ref: CP VII AppJp743]

may have been daughter of Aelfgar, Earl of Mercia, and niece or grand-niece of Thorold, Sheriff of Lincolnshire. It is also possible that she may have been daughter of Thorold. She was niece of Robert Malet lord of Eye, and of Alan of Lincoln, lord of Thoresway [Ref: Sanders Baronies p18(1)]

parents being Turold the Sheriff and daughter of Robert Malet's sister first suggested by R. Kirk in 1888. This account has the merits of explaining why the lordship of Spalding and other places in Lincolnshire were held after Ivo's death not by Beatrice, his direct heir and the daughter of his marriage to Lucy, but by the later husbands of Lucy, Roger Fitx Gerold and Ranulph Meschines. [Ref: Keats-Rohan Lucy]

Spurious charter of Crowland Abbey made Turold of Bucknal (the Sheriff) the founder of the priory of Spalding as a cell of Crowland. It also called Turold brother of Godiva countess of Mercia, but subsequently described Godiva's son Earl Algar as Turold's cognatus (cousin). A genealogia fundatoris of Coventry Abbey made Lucy a daughter of Earl Algar and sister and heiress of earls Edwin and Morcar. The Peterborough Chronicle and the Pseudo-Ingulf's Chronicle of Crowland both made Lucy the daughter of Algar and niece of great-niece of Turold. We know that William Malet was half-English, so these traditions probably boil down to a relationship between Countess Godiva and William's English mother. [Ref: Keats-Rohan Lucy]

in initial benefaction Ivo and Lucy referred to 'our ancestors Turold and his wife' The reference to Turold's wife indicates that some part of his landholdings had come to him through his wife, something also indicated by the occurrence of William Malet amongst those who had held the Domesday lands of Lucy's first husband Ivo Taillebois before him. [Ref: Keats-Rohan Lucy]

Farrer in the Honr of Chester vol. of Honors and Knights' Fees, p.153 et seq.:
"In Bolingbroke wapentake, Lincs., Ivo Taillebois had 2 carucates in Bolingbroke in 1086, which Stori held T.R.E. [time of King Edward], 1 car. of which was in the soc, with the other soc in 19 places (86 car. and 3 bov.). Stori also held Belchford; possibly he was the Stori, Tori or Thuri, the huscarle of King Edward, who was Walter de Aincurt's predecessor inseveral counties. ...
Much ink has been spilt over the debate as to the parentage of the countess Lucy, and various conjectures on the subject have been put forward by Thomas Stapleton [Hist. of the Norman Excheque, ii:cliii], John Gough Nichols [Topographer and Genealogist, 1:12ff and Archeological Institute (Lincoln), 1848:254ff], Prof. Freeman [Norman Conquest, ii:682], REG Kirk [The Genealogist, NS iv and v] and others.
Some writers have been led astray by associating Thorold the sheriff with the Domesday fee of Ivo Taillebois, the first husband of Lucy. The writer of these notes suggests that Thorold the sheriff was the pre-conquest holder of the manor of Greetham and some part of the fee which Hugh earl of Chester held at the date of the Domesday survey, on the ground that in 1165 Hugh earl of Chester contributed in Leicestershire 20 marks to the levy for the army of Wales 'for the fee of Thorold the sheriff,' [Pipe Roll, 11 Hen. II, p. 37.] at he same time that Richard de Canvill accounted on behalf of William de Romare, then in his minority, for 46 3/8 knights' fees of the Honor of Romare in Lincolnshire. [Ibid. 38] It is improbable that Thorold the sheriff was a benefactor to Spalding abbey. The gift of tithes in Tetney, Alkborough, Normanby-on-the-Wold, Belchford and Scamblesby, made by 'Thorold' to St. Nicholas of Angers, appears to have been the gift of a later Thorold [Mon. Anglic. iii:215b], possibly an Angevin and the predecessor of Ivo Taillebois at Bolingbroke and Belchford. It is not impossible that this Thorold was the successor of Stori, and as statedin the Spalding chartulary, predecessor of Ivo Taillebois and kinsman of Lucy. From the date (1091-2) it is thus unlikely that he was Turold, a baron of Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire to whom a writ of William II was addressed whereby he appointed Columbanus abbot of St. Mary's, Stow. [Chartulary of Eynsham, i:48].
The name of Lucy's father does not appear to have been preserved, but there is satisfactory evidence that her mother was daughter of William Malet [Cotton Ch. xvii:2], from whom she appears to have obtained the manor of Alkborough in marriage, with certain soclands of Malet's manor of Barrowby-in-Honington and Barkston. As Mr. Stapleton has pointed out, the severance of the manor of Alkborough from the honor of Eye can best be explained by reason that it was the maritagium of Lucy's mother." [Ref: Kay Allen SGM 10/1/1998]

REG Kirk start his series of articles, "The Countess Lucy: Singular or Plural," on p. 60 of The Genealogist 4NS.
First, he gives Dugdale's version as given in his Baronage (on film from the FHC). Lucy is gran-daughter of Leofric, Earl of Mercia, and of Godiva, her father being Aelfgar. Dugdale gives her three husbands, Ivo Taillebois, of Anjou, by whom she had no children; Roger de Roumare, by whom she had William; and Ranulph Meschin, earl of Chester.
He then goes on with a critique. Lucy is supposedly born no later than 1059, if she is Aelfgar's daughter, as that is his date of death. That she is Aelfgar's daughter is alleged by the monks of Peterborough in the Chronicle of Peterborough and by the Crowland Ingulf material which will be questioned. Her marriage date according to these two sources is either 1072 or 1073. Peter of Blois states Ivo lived until 1114. If this is so, then Lucy would have been 55 years old and most probably incapable of being the mother of William de Roumare and the Earl of Chester. So two Lucys were created, which were the hypotheses of John Gough Nichols in Annals and Antiquities of Lacock Abbey and the author of "Additions to Dugdale's Baronage", *Collectanea Topographica et Genealogica, vii:130 and viii: 156. Other authors also accepted this hypothesis. According to Kirk, they rely on Peter of Blois assertion that Ivo and Lucy had an only daughter. They did not note that Peter of Blois also states that this daughter died in her father's lifetime, without issue. Stapleton and Nichols have posited a daughter Beatrice, wife of Ribaud of Middleham. [Ref: Kay Allen SGM 10/2/1998-A]

Kirk's objections to the double-Lucy theory part 1:
Aelfgar did not die as early as 1059. Prof Freeman (Norman Conquest, ii:469, 631) gives between 1062 and 1065. The French editor of Orderic Vitalis (Edition of the Soc. de l'Hist. de France, ii:119 note) gives 1063.
Ivo Taillebois died before 1100. [about 1092-3, KA] Therefore, Lucy could have been mother to William de Roumare who succeeded his father Roger FizGerald in 1119. [William would have been born before 1098, if he succeeded when of age. KA]

There is no evidence that Ivo and Lucy had a daughter Lucy. The proofs concerning Beatrice, wife of Ribaud/Ribald de Middleham rest on a charter of Ivo's which is not cited. It is Kirk's opinion that there is no evidence that Beatrice was Lucy's daughter.
"Thus the only good piece of evidence yet before us is the Spalding charter, which mentions Matilda, daughter of the Countess Lucy, and if nothing more definite could be discovered, we should be driven to the conclusion that Matilda was the sole daughter of Ivo and Lucy." [Unfortunately, Kirk does note give a date for this charter or more details concerning it. We also have Peter of Blois' word that this dtr. d.v.p. and s.p.] [Ref: Kay Allen SGM 10/2/1998-B]

In the Lucy problem, the question is: Is the Thorold, kinsman of Lucy identical with Thorold the Sheriff? Farrer thought not. Keats-Rohan and Kirk do or did think so. [Ref: Kay Allen SGM 10/7/1998-A]

The link between Aelfgar and Lucy is Spalding. The link from Aelgar could well have been broken by Hastings. It could have been granted to someone between Aelfgar and lucy and not related to Aelfgar. It could have been a Thorold, but that does not prove it was Thorold the Sheriff, just a Thorold, who may have been a kinsman of Lucy's. "No close family connection between Aelfgar and Lucy is mentioned in any contemporary document, and chronology is opposed to the relationship of father and daughter. Moreover, the only known children of Aelfgar are Edwin, Morcar, and Aeldgitha, wife of Harold, and consequently the passing of the manor of Spalding cannot be held to justify the inference that Aelfgar was father of Lucy." [Ref: Kay Allen SGM 10/7/1998-B]

These are some of the charters that Kirk uses in his search for Lucy.
"1. Charter of Thorold to St. Nicholas and the monks of Spalding, granting tithes in Tetenay, Alkebarge, Normanby, Beltisford and Scamelisby." Kirk points out that the text is not set out. To me that sets off bells as does the fact that it only appears in later compilations: the Spalding Register; Cole's MS and Dugdale's Monasticon. But if it is given the benefit of the doubt, we do not know its date. It also does not specify "The Sheriff."
I believe the only land definitely attributed to "The Sheriff" is Bukenhale which he gave to Spalding. Thorold is not an uncommon name and it was used both by "English" and Normans.
"4. Grant by Ivo Taillebois to the church of St. Nicholas of Angers, of the church of Spalding, with a carucate of land there, for the souls of King William and Matilda his wife, of himself and his wife Lucy, and his or their ancestors, to wit, Thorold and his wife, on condition that 'the monks of Angers granted to the monks of St. Nicholas' should acknowledge this as the first gift". This is dated 1085. Again the text is not set out and his citations are the same as above.
"24. Inspeximus by Oliver, Bishop of Lincoln, of a charter of 'Hugh, brother of Ranulph, Earl of Chester, and Matilda his wife, daughter of the Countess Lucy,' granting to the monks of Spalding." An inspeximus is not an original, and his citations are the Spalding Register and Coles MS. If this is genuine, it would show that Lucy had a dtr by Taillebois or FitzGerold. If Ivo's dtr., she would be born ca. 1080 to 1093, just barely old enough to marry the brother of her mother's third husband. Would this also be a prohibited marriage?
"39. Charter of Henry, Duke of Normandy, granting to Ranulph (Gernons), Earl of Chester, and Viscount of Avranches, all his inheritance in Normandy and in England, particulars of which are set out, including all the honor of Eye, as fully as Robert Malet, his mother's uncle ever held it; and the fee of Alan of Lincoln, his mother's uncle." This is the charter which Dr. Keats-Rohan feels has an error in it concerning Alan of Lincoln's relationship to Lucy. "Dated at Devizes [1152]."
"9. Charter of Ranulph Meschin to Stephen, the abbot, and the convent of St. Mary of York, addressed to Richerius, Sheriff of Carlisle, and to all his men, French and English, who dwell in 'the power of Carlisle; granting the manor which is called Wederhal, with the lands appertaining thereto, for the souls of King Henry, the donor's father and mother, himself and his wife Lucy. Witnesses : Osbert the Sheriff, Waltheof son of Gospatric the Earl, Fornus son of Sigulfus, Chetellus son of Ectredus, etc." It is interesting to note that Chetellus/Ketel, a succesor of Ivo Taillebois in Westmorland was a witness.
Kirk goes on to expound on the genuineness of the Spalding Charter, which since it is one of his prime citations, is to be expected. I do not know enough about it to render a final judgement. [Ref: Kay Allen SGM 10/14/1998]



Pedigree of Lucia Of East Angies
          /-----(Unk)
 /-----Thorold Of Buckingham, Sheriff Of Lincoln
Lucia Of East Angies
|         /-----William MALET
 \-----(Unk Dau)
         |                           /-----Grimold Prince Of Monaco
         |                  /-----Crispin De BEC
         |                 |         \-----Crispina
         |         /-----Gilbert Crespin, Lord Of Tillieres
         |        |        |         /-----Sigfrid Count Of Guines
         |        |         \-----Heloise De GUINES
         |        |                 |                           /-----Baldwin I Bras De Fer Count Of Flanders
         |        |                 |                  /-----Baldwin II The Bald Count Of Flanders
         |        |                 |                 |         \-----Judith
         |        |                 |         /-----Arnold I The Old Count Of Flanders
         |        |                 |        |        |         /-----Alfred The Great King Of England
         |        |                 |        |         \-----Alfthryth Of England
         |        |                 |        |                  \-----Ealhswith
         |        |                  \-----Elsunde Of Flanders
         |        |                          |                  /-----Herbert I Count Of Vermandois
         |        |                          |         /-----Herbert II Count Of Vermandois
         |        |                          |        |         \-----Beatrice Of Morvois
         |        |                           \-----Alix De Vermandois
         |        |                                   |         /-----Robert I King Of France
         |        |                                    \-----Hildebrante/Liegarde/Adela
         |        |                                             \-----Aelis
          \-----Esilia CRISPIN
                  |         /-----Baudry
                   \-----Gunnor De ANJOU
                           |                                    /-----William Longspee Duke Of Normandy
                           |                           /-----Richard I The Fearless Duke Of Normandy
                           |                          |         \-----Espriota
                           |                  /-----Godfrey Count Of Brionne
                           |                 |        |         /-----(Unk) Forquelar Of Cirques
                           |                 |         \-----Gunnora
                           |         /-----Robert Of Brionne
                            \-----(Unk Dau) Of Brionne



Descendants of Lucia Of East Angies

2nd generation


3rd generation


4th generation


5th generation