Individual Page

Person Info

Name: Ermentrude Of France
Sex: F
Birth: Abt 865 ^b

Parents:

Father:
Louis II The Stammerer King Of France Birth: 1 Nov 846 Death: 10 Apr 879 in Compiegne

Mother:

Adelaide Birth: Abt 855 Death: 18 Nov Abt 901

Family:
Children:

Cunegunde Birth: Abt 895 Death: After 930

Bibliography

Brandenburg, Erich, Die Nachkommen Karls des Grossen, Faksimile-Nachdruck von 1935 (Facsimile reproduction of 1935), mit Korrekturen und Erganzungen versehen von (with corrections and additions provided by) Manfred Dreiss und Lupold v. Lehsten. Neustadt an der Aisch:Verlag Degener, 1995. NYPL ATH (Charlemagne) 96-4768. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Brandenburg 1995 p[0-9]*].
Settipani, Christian, Louis the Stammerer's daughter Ermentrude. Posting to soc.genealogy.medieval (email list GEN-MEDIEVAL) on 1/13/2003. Subject: Louis the Stammerer's daughter Ermentrude. Available at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/4GOOyKYQ7tE/m/lOy6bWp5_EEJ. Author address: inapit at club-internet dot fr. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Christian Settipani SGM 1/13/2003-161758].
Schwennicke, Detlev, ed., Europaische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der europaischen Staaten, New Series. I.1: Die frankischen Konige und die Konige und Kaiser, Stammesherzoge, Kurfursten, Markgrafen und Herzoge des Heiligen Romischen Reiches Deutscher Nation. Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio Klostermann, 1998. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: ES I.1 #[0-9]*].
Schwennicke, Detlev, ed., Europaische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der europaischen Staaten, New Series. II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Hauser der Ubrigen Staaten Europas. Marburg: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, 1984. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: ES II #[0-9]*].
The Henry Project: The Ancestors of King Henry II of England, An eperiment in a cooperative online database for scholarly medieval genealogy. Contributors and Editors: Stewart Baldwin, Todd Farmerie, Peter Stewart. Available at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/ Information from this source tagged as [Ref: HenryII .*].
Moriarty, G Andrews, Plantagenet Ancestry of King Edward III And Queen Philippa. Salt Lake: Mormon Pioneer Genealogical Society, 1985. LDS Film#0441438. NYPL ARF-86-2555. Available at https://familysearch.org/search/film/007905814?cat=66443. Also available at https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/66443. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Moriarty Plantagenet p[0-9]*].
Stewart, Peter, Louis the Stammerer's daughter Ermentrude. Posting to soc.genealogy.medieval (email list GEN-MEDIEVAL) on 1/12/2003. Subject: Louis the Stammerer's daughter Ermentrude. Available at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/4GOOyKYQ7tE/m/bz1WGgum-NQJ. Author address: psssst at optusnet dot com dot au. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Peter Stewart SGM 1/12/2003-173904].
Richardson, Douglas, Royal Ancestry. Salt Lake City, Utah: Douglas Richardson, 2013. NYPL JFF 16-1184 v1-5 Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Richardson RoyalAnc v5p[0-9]*].
Settipani, Christian, La prehistore des Capetiens: 481-987. Villeneue d'Asacq: P. Van Kerrebrouck, 1993. NYPL ASF (Capet) 94-7243. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Settipani Capet [p#][0-9]*].
Baldwin, Stewart, Carolingian table in the Munich manuscript. Posting to soc.genealogy.medieval (email list GEN-MEDIEVAL) on 3/14/2002. Subject: Carolingian table in the Munich manuscript. Available at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/pZ4nwakttLY/m/_sKSZMxZ6T8J. Author address: sbaldw at mindspring dot com. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Stewart Baldwin SGM 3/14/2002-141143 .*].
Weis, Frederick Lewis, Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr, David Faris, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists who came to America before 1700, 7th Edition, Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co, 1992. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Weis AR7 #[0-9][0-9]*[A-Z]*].

Sources for birth and parent Information

date:: (875) [Ref: ES I.1 #6, ES II #1]; 870 [Ref: Weis AR7 #143]; abt 865 [Ref: Christian Settipani SGM 1/13/2003-161758]; abt 870 [Ref: Brandenburg 1995 p2, Moriarty Plantagenet p21, Settipani Capet #7]; abt 875 [Ref: Richardson RoyalAnc v5p503]; say 870x7 [Ref: HenryII ermen102 5/23/2007, HenryII louis001 8/16/2012],
parents:: [Ref: Brandenburg 1995 p2, ES I.1 #6, HenryII ermen102 5/23/2007, HenryII louis001 8/16/2012, Moriarty Plantagenet p21, Weis AR7 #143],
father:: [Ref: Moriarty Plantagenet p126, Settipani Capet #7, Stewart Baldwin SGM 3/14/2002-141143 (Munich manuscript)]

Sources with Inaccurate birth and parent Information

mother:: Ansgarde (#24523) [Ref: Settipani Capet #7]

Sources with Information about marriage to unknown

child:: [Ref: Brandenburg 1995 p2, ES II #1, HenryII ermen102 5/23/2007, HenryII kunig000 6/10/2010, HenryII wiger000 8/3/2008, Moriarty Plantagenet p126, Moriarty Plantagenet p21, Moriarty Plantagenet p247, Richardson RoyalAnc v5p503, Settipani Capet #7, Stewart Baldwin SGM 3/14/2002-141143 (Munich manuscript), Weis AR7 #143]

Research Notes:
mentioned only in two genealogical sources, this obscure daughter of Louis II of France was the ancestor of the counts of Luxemburg and of the dukes of Upper and Lower Lorraine, descendants of her daughter Cunegonde. Even the name of her husband is unknown [Ref: HenryII ermen102 5/23/2007]

conjectured husband (possible, but unproven) Regnier I, d.915, count. Conjectured husband (no good evidence) NN, son of Regnier, d. 8 Oct 876. Conjectured husband (no good evidence, very doubtful) Heinrich, d.26 Aug 886, count of Grabfeld [Ref: HenryII ermen102 5/23/2007]

I've just noticed a major error in _La prehistoire des Capetiens 481-987_ (Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993) that will have found its way over the past ten years into many people's ancestry data: on page 318 Christian Settipani mistakenly gives Charles III the Simple as the only child of Louis II the Stammerer's second wife Adelaide, wrongly giving his sister Ermentrude as a daughter of their father's first wife Ansgarde. The mistake is repeated in table 7 on page 431.
However, Ermentrude is correctly shown as Adelaide's daughter, and full-sister to Charles the Simple, by both of the sources Settipani cites, Erich Brandenburg [_Die Nachkommen Karls des Grossen, I.-XIV. Generation_ (Frankfurt am Main, 1964) no. V 25] and Karl Ferdinand Werner ['Die Nachkommen Karls des Grossen bis um das Jahr 1000 (1-8 Generation)', _Karl der Grosse: Lebenswerk und Nachleben_, 5 vols, ed Wolfgang Braunfels & others (Dusseldorf, 1965-68), vol 4, p 457 and no. V 37 in table]. But, while attributing their children accurately, Werner retained the mislabelling of Louis the Stammerer's wives (as "b" and "c" respectively instead of "a" and "b") after he had omitted the Breton princess given as spouse "a" by Brandenburg (this marriage had been agreed but evidently did not take place).
Although these secondary works don't cite a primary source, the information comes from Witger's mid-10th century _Genealogia Arnulfi comitis_ [edited by Ludwig Bethmann, MGH Scriptores IX 302-304, p 303]: "Hlodovicus rex genuit Hludovicum et Karlomannum et Hildegardim ex Ansgardi vocata regina, Karolum quoque postumum et Irmintrudim ex Adelheidi regina" (trans: Louis begot Louis, Carloman and Hildegarde from Ansgard, called queen [NB this title was contentious because Louis repudiated her, due to his father's disapproval of their marriage, without sanction from the pope], also Charles, posthumously, and Ermentrude from Queen Adelaide).
This seems to be an example of Settipani miscopying from Werner miscopying from Brandenburg. [Ref: Peter Stewart SGM 1/12/2003-173904]

That is perfectly right. In the Addenda to the "Prehistoire", written in 1994/5 and never published but privately distributed, I wrote:
"Contrairement a ce que nous ecrivons par megarde, Ermentrudis est la fille de Louis et de sa seconde epouse, Adelais, comme l'indique la 'genealogia' de Witger. Pour des raisons chronologiques liees a sa descendance, sa naissance est a mettre le plus tot possible, donc des 871 sans doute (voire meme plus tot si elle est nee avant le mariage de ses parents, et des 865 en fait croyons-nous). On corrigera dans ce sens le tableau genealogique no 7". [Ref: Christian Settipani SGM 1/13/2003-161758]

Stewart Baldwin asked: On a related matter, in footnote 865 of the same page (318), after briefly mentioning the problem of the marriages of Cunigund (daughter of Ermentrude) and the problem of identifying Ermentrude's husband, you indicated that the second part will propose a different solution. Would it be possible to give a brief description of the proposed solution to which you were referring? A: Very briefly :
A) Ermentrudis, daughter of Louis II, is the mother of Cunegundis, mother of Giselbert and Gauslin, father of Reginhar;
B) Giselbert, duke of Lorraine, is the son of Reginhar and Alberada; he is the father of Alberada, mother of Giselbert and Ermentrudis (of Roucy).
One admits usually that Reginhar got married twice: with Ermentrudis who gives him Cunegundis, and with Aberada, who give him Giselbert. I suggest rather to distinguish (with some old scholars):
Reginhar, count 877-886 (*v.850, + 886/95), husband of Ermentrudis (* c. 865?), daughter of Louis II (* 846), parents of:
-Reginhar, count 895-915 (*v.880, + 915), husband of Alberada, father of Giselbert (*c.900, + 939), father of Alberada, mother of Giselbert and Ermentrudis (of Roucy)
-Cunegundis ( v.890 ), wife of Wigeric, mother of Giselbert and Gauslin, father of Reginhar
-etc.
This reconstruction supposes so that Ermentrudis, Louis II's daughter, had been born appreciably before 870, when her mother was married to her father. [Ref: Christian Settipani SGM 1/13/2003-161758]

----- Europaische Stammtafeln I.1 #6 ("Die Karlinger III, Konige von Westfranken 877-986, Herzoge von Niederlothringen 978-1012"): Ermentrud *(875) m. NN [Ref: ES I.1 #6]

Pedigree of Ermentrude Of France
                                                                /-----Duke Ansgise Mayor Of The Palace To Siegbert
                                                       /-----Pepin Of Heristal, Mayor Of Palace
                                                      |         \-----Saint Begga Of Landen
                                              /-----Charles Martel, The Hammer, Mayor Of The Palace, King Of France
                                             |        |         /-----Childebrand
                                             |         \-----Aupais
                                     /-----Pepin The Short King Of The Franks
                                    |        |                  /-----(Unk) Noble Of Hesbaye
                                    |        |         /-----Lambertus II Of Hesbaye
                                    |         \-----Chrotrudis
                            /-----Charlemagne King Of France
                           |        |                           /-----Chariveus Count Of Laon
                           |        |                  /-----(Unk Son) Of Bavaria
                           |        |                 |         \-----Irmina
                           |        |         /-----Caribert Count Of Laon
                           |        |        |        |         /-----Theoderic III King Of Franks, King Of Burgundy
                           |        |        |         \-----Bertrade De Preum
                           |        |        |                  \-----Dode
                           |         \-----Bertha Of Laon, Countess Of Laon
                           |                  \-----Gisele
                   /-----Louis I The Fair Emperor Of The West
                  |        |                  /-----Agilolf
                  |        |         /-----Gerold I Count In The Anglachau
                  |         \-----Hildegarde Of Swabia, Countess Of Vinzgau
                  |                 |                           /-----Godefrey Duke Of Alamannia
                  |                 |                  /-----Houching Duke Of Alamannia
                  |                 |                 |         \-----(Unk Dau) Of Bavaria
                  |                 |         /-----Hnabi Duke Of Alamannia, Count In The Linzgau
                  |                  \-----Emma
                  |                           \-----Hersuinde
          /-----Charles II The Bald King Of Franks, Emperor
         |        |                           /-----Guelph Duke Of Fruili, Count Of Bavaria
         |        |                  /-----Ruthardus Duke Of Bavaria
         |        |         /-----Guelph Count Of Andech And Bavaria
         |         \-----Judith Of Bavaria
         |                 |         /-----(Unk) Saxon
         |                  \-----Edith (Heilwig) Of Saxony, Abbess Of Chelles
/-----Louis II The Stammerer King Of France
|        |                                    /-----Agilolf
|        |                           /-----Gerold I Count In The Anglachau
|        |                  /-----Hadrian Lord In The Worms
|        |                 |        |                           /-----Godefrey Duke Of Alamannia
|        |                 |        |                  /-----Houching Duke Of Alamannia
|        |                 |        |                 |         \-----(Unk Dau) Of Bavaria
|        |                 |        |         /-----Hnabi Duke Of Alamannia, Count In The Linzgau
|        |                 |         \-----Emma
|        |                 |                  \-----Hersuinde
|        |         /-----Eudes Count Of Orleans
|        |        |        |                           /-----Barnier
|        |        |        |                  /-----Thiery (Not Makhir) Count Of Autun
|        |        |        |                 |        |         /-----(Unk Son) Of Bavaria
|        |        |        |                 |         \-----Rolanda
|        |        |        |                 |                  \-----Bertrade De Preum
|        |        |        |         /-----Adalelmus
|        |        |        |        |        |                  /-----Pepin Of Heristal, Mayor Of Palace
|        |        |        |        |        |         /-----Charles Martel, The Hammer, Mayor Of The Palace, King Of France
|        |        |        |        |        |        |         \-----Aupais
|        |        |        |        |         \-----Auda
|        |        |        |        |                 |         /-----Lambertus II Of Hesbaye
|        |        |        |        |                  \-----Chrotrudis
|        |        |         \-----Waldast
|         \-----Ermentrude Of Orleans
|                 |                  /-----Girard Count Of Paris
|                 |         /-----Leuthard Count Of Fezenac
|                 |        |        |                           /-----Pepin Of Heristal, Mayor Of Palace
|                 |        |        |                  /-----Charles Martel, The Hammer, Mayor Of The Palace, King Of France
|                 |        |        |                 |         \-----Aupais
|                 |        |        |         /-----Carloman Mayor Of The Palace
|                 |        |        |        |        |         /-----Lambertus II Of Hesbaye
|                 |        |        |        |         \-----Chrotrudis
|                 |        |         \-----Rotrude
|                  \-----Engeltrude
|                           \-----Grimihild
Ermentrude Of France
|                                             /-----Agilolf
|                                    /-----Gerold I Count In The Anglachau
|                           /-----Ulrich I Count In The Orgengau
|                          |        |                           /-----Godefrey Duke Of Alamannia
|                          |        |                  /-----Houching Duke Of Alamannia
|                          |        |                 |         \-----(Unk Dau) Of Bavaria
|                          |        |         /-----Hnabi Duke Of Alamannia, Count In The Linzgau
|                          |         \-----Emma
|                          |                  \-----Hersuinde
|                  /-----Wulfhard
|         /-----Adalhard Count Of Paris
|        |        |                  /-----Girard Count Of Paris
|        |        |         /-----Begue Count Of Paris
|        |        |        |        |                           /-----Pepin Of Heristal, Mayor Of Palace
|        |        |        |        |                  /-----Charles Martel, The Hammer, Mayor Of The Palace, King Of France
|        |        |        |        |                 |         \-----Aupais
|        |        |        |        |         /-----Carloman Mayor Of The Palace
|        |        |        |        |        |        |         /-----Lambertus II Of Hesbaye
|        |        |        |        |        |         \-----Chrotrudis
|        |        |        |         \-----Rotrude
|        |         \-----Susanna
|        |                 |                                    /-----Charles Martel, The Hammer, Mayor Of The Palace, King Of France
|        |                 |                           /-----Pepin The Short King Of The Franks
|        |                 |                          |         \-----Chrotrudis
|        |                 |                  /-----Charlemagne King Of France
|        |                 |                 |        |         /-----Caribert Count Of Laon
|        |                 |                 |         \-----Bertha Of Laon, Countess Of Laon
|        |                 |                 |                  \-----Gisele
|        |                 |         /-----Louis I The Fair Emperor Of The West
|        |                 |        |        |                  /-----Agilolf
|        |                 |        |        |         /-----Gerold I Count In The Anglachau
|        |                 |        |         \-----Hildegarde Of Swabia, Countess Of Vinzgau
|        |                 |        |                 |         /-----Hnabi Duke Of Alamannia, Count In The Linzgau
|        |                 |        |                  \-----Emma
|        |                 |        |                           \-----Hersuinde
|        |                  \-----Aupals
\-----Adelaide

Descendants of Ermentrude Of France