Individual Page

Person Info

Name: Goisfred Lord Of Carshalton
Sex: M
Birth: Abt 1060 ^b
Death: After 1100 ^d

Parents:

Father:
Eustace II Count Of Boulogne Death: Abt 1093

Family:
Marriage:

Beatrice De MANDEVILLE on Before 1086 .^m1
Beatrice De MANDEVILLE

Children:

William De BOULOGNE Birth: Abt 1088 Death: Before 1130

Bibliography

Bevan, Rosie, and Peter G M Dale, A Rose by Any Other Name: Another Daughter of Richard de Lucy, in Foundations for Medieval Genealogy, vol 6, no 1 (2014), pp.13-46. Available at https://fmg.ac/publications/journal/vol-6/280-fnd6-05. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Bevan Lucy p[0-9]*].
Cokayne, George Edward, Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom, extant, extinct, or dormant, vol 05 E-Goojerat. London: St Catherine Press, 1926. Reprinted (4 per page) Gloucester: A Sutton, 1982. Available at https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/271412 Information from this source tagged as [Ref: CP V [Ap][p0-9].*].
Cokayne, George Edward, Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom, extant, extinct, or dormant, vol 11, Ridley-Sinclair. London: St Catherine Press, 1949. Reprinted (4 per page) Gloucester: A Sutton, 1982. Available at https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/27141 Information from this source tagged as [Ref: CP XI [Ap][p0-9].*].
Richardson, Douglas, EXTENDED PEDIGREE OF COUNTS OF BOULOGNE-SUR-MER. Posting to soc.genealogy.medieval (email list GEN-MEDIEVAL) on 6/22/2005. Subject: EXTENDED PEDIGREE OF COUNTS OF BOULOGNE-SUR-MER. Available at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/44eb7V2WEXc/m/j9aSg7PsiuAJ. Author address: royalancestry at msn dot com. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Douglas Richardson SGM 6/22/2005-201325].
Schwennicke, Detlev, ed., Europaische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der europaischen Staaten, New Series. III.4 (#601-#820): Das Feudale Frankreich und sein Einfluss auf die Welt des Mittelalters. Marburg: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, 1989. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: ES III.4 #[0-9]*].
Ravilious, John, Descent from Eustace II of Boulogne to Eleanor de Furnival. Posting to soc.genealogy.medieval (email list GEN-MEDIEVAL) on 6/16/2005. Subject: Eleanor de Furnival, wife of Richard de Brewes. Available at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/nqN9a18rNUk/m/uNHIK7MRTB0J. Author address: Therav3 at aol dot com. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: John Ravilious SGM 6/16/2005-163829].
Keats-Rohan, K.S.B., Domesday Descendants, A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166. Vol II: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum. Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk: Boydell Press, 2002. NYPL ARF 03-4178 vol 2. Corrections at http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-descendants-corrigenda.pdf Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p[0-9]*].
Keats-Rohan, K.S.B., Domesday People, A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166. Vol I: Domesday Book. Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk: Boydell Press, 1999. NYPL ARF 03-4178 vol 1. Corrections in Volume II (Domesday Descendants) pp 4-5. Further corrections at http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-people-corrigenda.pdf Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Keats-Rohan DP p[0-9]*].
Murray, Alan V, The Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem: A Dynastic History 1099-1125, Oxford: Linacre Unit for Prospographical Research, 2000. vol 4 of Occasional Publications. NYPL ASB 02-6745. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Murray Jerusalem p[0-9]*].
Taylor, Nathaniel, Godfrey de Bouillon. Posting to soc.genealogy.medieval (email list GEN-MEDIEVAL) on 11/15/1998. Subject: Godfrey de Bouillon: English family?. Available at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/vslvd75QpmU/m/zzkDPBFXxm0J. Author address: ntaylor at fas dot harvard dot edu. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Nat Taylor SGM 11/15/1998-A].
Richardson, Douglas, Royal Ancestry. Salt Lake City, Utah: Douglas Richardson, 2013. NYPL JFF 16-1184 v1-5 Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Richardson RoyalAnc v1[pc][0-9]*].
Wagner, Anthony, Pedigree and Progress, Essays in the Genealogical Interpretation of History, London, Philmore, 1975. Rutgers Alex CS4.W33. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Wagner PedigreeProgress #[0-9]*].
Weis, Frederick Lewis, Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr, David Faris, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists who came to America before 1700, 7th Edition, Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co, 1992. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Weis AR7 #[0-9][0-9]*[A-Z]*].

Sources for birth and parent Information

date:: say 1060 [Ref: Richardson RoyalAnc v1p466],
father:: [Ref: Bevan Lucy p18, CP XI p479(a), ES III.4 #621, John Ravilious SGM 6/16/2005-163829, Weis AR7 #158A]; dotted line on chart [Ref: Wagner PedigreeProgress #1]; illeg son [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p566, Keats-Rohan DP p227, Keats-Rohan DP p229]; illeg son by unknown mistress [Ref: Richardson RoyalAnc v1p466]; illeg son of Eustace II [Ref: Douglas Richardson SGM 6/22/2005-201325, Murray Jerusalem p159]

Sources with Inaccurate birth and parent Information

mother:: possibly Godgifu (#17020), if that marriage was declared consanguinous by Pope Leo IX in 1049 [Ref: Murray Jerusalem p163]

Sources for death Information

date:: after 1086 [Ref: John Ravilious SGM 6/16/2005-163829, Richardson RoyalAnc v1p467]; occ 1100 [Ref: ES III.4 #621]

Sources with Information about marriage to Beatrice De MANDEVILLE

date:: before 1084 [Ref: Richardson RoyalAnc v1p466]; before 1086 [Ref: John Ravilious SGM 6/16/2005-163829, Keats-Rohan DP p229]; before c1085 [Ref: Keats-Rohan DP p227]; by 1085 [Ref: Murray Jerusalem p160]; vor 1086 [Ref: ES III.4 #621],
names:: [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p566]; Geoffrey & dau Goffrey de Mandeville [Ref: CP XI p479(a)]; Geoffrey de Boulogne & dau Geoffrey de Mandeville [Ref: CP V p116f],
child:: [Ref: John Ravilious SGM 6/16/2005-163829, Murray Jerusalem p160, Richardson RoyalAnc v1p467, Weis AR7 #158A]

Research Notes:
Lord of Carshalton [Ref: ES III.4 #621]

of Carshalton, co Surrey [Ref: John Ravilious SGM 6/16/2005-163829]

Wagner considers Godfrey, father of William, "prob illeg", and not identical with the Advocate of the Holy Sepulcher [Ref: Weis AR7 #158A]

Davis and Whitwell, 1913, identified him as the better-known son Godfrey of Bouillon, which must be declined (1) different form of the name, Geoffrey vs Godfrey (2) issue of motivation, Godfrey groomed to succeed to the Ardennes-Bouillon lands (3) presence in England while Godfrey was defending his inheritance in Lotharingia, and (4) that William of Boulogne didn't inherit from Godfrey [Ref: Murray Jerusalem p160]

1066/71: mentioned in a writ of William I, as Gaufridus filius comitis Eustachii [Ref: Murray Jerusalem p159]

1076/84: William I confirmed a donation of three hides made by Gaufridus filus comitis Eustachii pro Beatrice uxora sua, done with the consent of Geoffrey de Mandeville [Ref: Murray Jerusalem p159]

1086: Domesday tenant at Carshalton, Surrey [Ref: Weis AR7 #158A]

1086: occ Domesday [Ref: Keats-Rohan DP p229]

1086: "Goisfrid filius Eustachii Comitis" held the manor of Carshalton at the time of Domesday Book [Ref: John Ravilious SGM 6/16/2005-163829]

[WTM: apparently wrong Godfrey, rather to Godfrey King of Jerusalem; AR7 considers them to be identical]
1100: in Holy Land [Ref: ES III.4 #621]

Round 1895, p256) cites Domesday references to property held by Goisfrid, son of Count Eustace, in right of his wife, daughter of Geoffrey de Mandeville [Ref: Weis AR7 #158A]

received Aulton, Surrey as the maritagium of his wife [Ref: John Ravilious SGM 6/16/2005-163829]

Geoffrey himself holds Aulton. Five freemen (held it) of King Edward, and they could take what lord they pleased. Of these one held 2 hides and four 6 hides apiece. There were five manors. Now it is thrown into one manor. It was then assessed for 27 hides, now for 3 1/2 hides. The land is for 10 ploughs. In demesne there is one; and (there are) 9 villeins and 9 cottars with 5 ploughs. There is a church; and 7 slaves; and 12 acres of meadow. The men of the county and of the hundred say that they have never seen the writ or the livery officer who on the kings behalf had given Geoffrey possession of the manor. In the time of king Edward it was worth 20 pounds; when he took possession of it, 100 shillings, now ten pounds. Of these hides Wesman holds 6 hides of Geoffrey son of count Eustace. Geoffrey de Mandeville gave him this land with his daughter [as a dowery]. In demesne there is one plough; and (there are) 3 villens and one cottar with three ploughs; and a mill worth 35 shillings; and 3 slaves; and 10 acres of meadow. Wood worth 2 hogs. The land is for two ploughs. In the time of king Edward it was worth 4 pounds, and afterwards 40s, and now 110 shillings. Of the same hides a certain smith of the King's has half a hide, which in the time of king Edward he received with his wife, but he has never done any service for it.' [Domesday Book, for Carshalton]
[Ref: John Ravilious SGM 6/16/2005-163829]

Note: Although the Lotharingian name, Godofred, borne by the famous leader of the First Crusade, has been transcribed into English as 'Godfrey', this is etymologically incorrect. The name is, instead, the equivalent of the name which normally appears in cintemporary French or Anglo-Norman documents in such forms as "Goisfrid' and "Gauzfrid', the prototypes of modern "Geoffrey'. ...J. Horace Round (1895, p.256[no citation given]), citing Domesday references to property held by Goisfrid, son of Count Eustace in right of his wife, daughter of Geoffrey de Mandeville, says that 'Dr. Liebermann asks whether Geoffrey's daughter was not thus 'the first wife, else unknown, of the future King of jerusalem'.' The reference is presumably to the linguistically sophisticated Anglo-Saxonist, Felix Liebermann, who would have made the equation. However, in an article published a year later, on Faramus, grandson of "Goisfrid', Round makes no mention of this identification. He had come to recognize that "Goisfrid' was the equivalent of later Geoffrey and had been informed by his friend, M.V.J. Vaillant, of Boulogne 'that the sons of Eustace are known and that Geoffrey is not among them'. What M. Vaillant should have written was that there was no Godfrey among them. However, Round accepted the testimony of his linguistically naive friend against that of Liebermann and therefore invented a non-existent bastard son, Geoffrey, of Eustace of Boulogne. The truth was later recognized by Joseph Armitage Robinson in his study of the Crispins, and by H.W.C. Davis (1913) who drew attention to the fact that ''Godfrey' of Jerusalem married Beatrice, daughter of Geoffrey de mandeville and aunt of the first Earl of Essex.
While the holdings of Geoffrey de mandeville were not nearly as great as those of Eustace of Boulogne, he was a very substantial landholder in 11 counties and his daughter a suitable match "Godfrey' who had already inherited a great deal from his maternal uncle. That De Mandeville would have alienated property in order to give his daughter in marriage to a bastard son of Count Eustace, lacking any substantial prospects, is highly unlikely.
More recently, Johnson and Cronne, good historians but poor linguists, have used Round's article to 'correct' Davis. The true identity of Geoffrey/Godfrey was recognized again by Miss Catherine Morton, who has been in touch with DHK [David H. Kelley] and with Sir Anthony Wagner on this matter. Wagner(1975, p. 253, with an unfortunate misprint) mentions the 'confusion' between 'Godfrey'and 'Geoffrey'. It was there assumed that the confusi9on was ancient and that Eustace's son Godofred, was genuinely a Godfrey. It should be emphasized that actually the confusion is entirely modern due to the use of 'Godfrey' to transcribe a name which is etymologically 'Geoffrey' (the Germans use 'Gottfried' both for the leader of the first crusade and for Geoffrey Plantagenet, Count of Anjou--onew may regard this either as desirable consisttency or double error).
Wagner cites the views of Stephen Runciman, a historian of the crusades, pointing out that crusader sources make no suggestion of a wife for "Godfrey' and emphasizing his chastity. However, a wife and child left in England would not necessarily have been known to such sources, nor was there anything notable in a Crusader leaving s wife behind, though certainly noteworthy if he brought a wife with him. Runciman's further suggestion that 'Godfrey' might have made some sort og 'morganatic alliance must be rejected. The concept is completely foreign to the period, save, perhaps, among the Welsh and would, in any case, hardly apply to a marriage of 'Godfrey/Geoffrey' with Beatrice de Mandeville, of a family whose status was fully comparable to his own. It is extremely unlikely that 'maritagium', the term used for Goisfrid's marriage, would be applied to a union which was in any way irregular. Runciman is looking back from the days of 'Godfrey's' greatness, rather than realistically appraising the situation at the time of his marriage. [David Humiston Kelley was the author of this line.] [Ref: Weis AR7 #158A]

A "Goisfrid", son of Count Eustace [of Boulogne] is mentioned in Domesday Book as an English landholder, married to Beatrice de Mandeville (aunt of the first earl of Essex). Round (whom Schwennicke cites) and later Sir Anthony R. Wagner (in _Pedigree and Progress_, pp. 159 & 253) were convinced that this man was a separate person from the Crusader Godfrey (and was thus necessarily illegitimate, because Count Eustace's [legitimate] sons were known and did not include a "Goisfrid/Geoffrey").
However, The brief by David H. Kelley inserted in Weiss' _Ancestral Roots_, 7th ed., presents compelling arguments to show that the two men may have been the same. He points out that Goisfrid was onomastically equivalent to Godfrey (something Round ignored as the modern derivations, Geoffrey and Godfrey, are distinct but not their medieval equivalents), and that there is no evidence that the known data on the English landholder with a wife and heir in England and the leader of the first crusade cannot apply to one and the same person. This identity has indeed been on the table, as a query, since Round's day: Kelley mentions the work of Felix Liebermann, Joseph Armitage Robinson, and H. W. C. Davis as "pro".
One significant counterargument, raised by Wagner, is that none of the sources for the First Crusade ever allude to a marriage for Godfrey: rather they tout his chastity. This is less compelling when it is understood that contemporary writings of the first crusade don't talk much about the crusaders' home lives, and many of them left families behind. Thereafter much of the surviving historiography of the Crusades (from the twelfth century onward) is tainted with the themes of moral fitness for possession of the Holy Land. Godfrey succeeded in an enterprise which others, later, could not sustain: therefore in retrospect his virtue must have been beyond theirs. Think of Tasso's oberblown moral epic _Gierusalemme liberata_.
While this is not a proven descent (as Mr. Mann's database dump suggests), nor is it a fruitless and closed case as Mr. van de Pas thought. It is an intriguing hypothesis which deserves more complete scrutiny, and in a different forum, than it has yet had. Kelley, at least, suggests that determined digging may turn up more English records which will help tip the scales one way or the other. [Ref: Nat Taylor SGM 11/15/1998-A]

Pedigree of Goisfred Lord Of Carshalton
                                                                /-----Odoacre Count Of Harlebec
                                                       /-----Baldwin I Bras De Fer Count Of Flanders
                                              /-----Baldwin II The Bald Count Of Flanders
                                             |        |         /-----Charles II The Bald King Of Franks, Emperor
                                             |         \-----Judith
                                             |                  \-----Ermentrude Of Orleans
                                     /-----Adelulf Count Of Boulogne
                                    |        |                  /-----Ethelwolf King Of England
                                    |        |         /-----Alfred The Great King Of England
                                    |        |        |         \-----Osburh
                                    |         \-----Alfthryth Of England
                                    |                 |         /-----Aethelred Earl Of Mercia
                                    |                  \-----Ealhswith
                                    |                           \-----Eadburgh Of Mercia
                            /-----Arnulf Count Of Boulogne
                   /-----Baldwin Count Of Boulogne
          /-----Eustace I Count Of Boulogne
         |        |                                    /-----Gerulf Count Of Holland
         |        |                           /-----Thierri I Count Of West Friesland
         |        |                  /-----Thierri II Count Of West Friesland
         |        |                 |        |                  /-----Wichmann I Count Of Hainault
         |        |                 |        |         /-----Meginhard Count Of Hainault
         |        |                 |        |        |         \-----Evesa
         |        |                 |         \-----Geva
         |        |         /-----Arnulf Count Of Holland And Ghent
         |        |        |        |                           /-----Baldwin I Bras De Fer Count Of Flanders
         |        |        |        |                  /-----Baldwin II The Bald Count Of Flanders
         |        |        |        |                 |         \-----Judith
         |        |        |        |         /-----Arnold I The Old Count Of Flanders
         |        |        |        |        |        |         /-----Alfred The Great King Of England
         |        |        |        |        |         \-----Alfthryth Of England
         |        |        |        |        |                  \-----Ealhswith
         |        |        |         \-----Hildegarde Of Flanders
         |        |        |                 |                  /-----Herbert I Count Of Vermandois
         |        |        |                 |         /-----Herbert II Count Of Vermandois
         |        |        |                 |        |         \-----Beatrice Of Morvois
         |        |        |                  \-----Alix De Vermandois
         |        |        |                          |         /-----Robert I King Of France
         |        |        |                           \-----Hildebrante/Liegarde/Adela
         |        |        |                                    \-----Aelis
         |         \-----Adela Of Holland
         |                 |                           /-----(Unk)
         |                 |                  /-----Wigeric Count in Bidgau
         |                 |         /-----Siegfried Count Of Luxemburg
         |                 |        |         \-----Cunegunde
         |                 |        |                 |         /-----Louis II The Stammerer King Of France
         |                 |        |                  \-----Ermentrude Of France
         |                 |        |                           \-----Adelaide
         |                  \-----Luitgard Of Luxembourg
         |                          |                           /-----Eberhard III Count In Nordgau
         |                          |                  /-----Hugh I Count In Abracian Nordgau
         |                          |         /-----Ebergard Count In The Nordgau, Count Of Alsace
         |                          |        |         \-----Hildegarde
         |                           \-----Hedwig Of Nordgau
         |                                    \-----Bertha
/-----Eustace II Count Of Boulogne
|        |                                                      /-----Giselbert, Count In The Massgau
|        |                                             /-----Giselbert Count Of Darnau
|        |                                            |         \-----(Unk) Of Hesbaye
|        |                                    /-----Regnier I Count Of Hainaut
|        |                                   |        |         /-----Lothair I King Of Italy, Emperor Of The West
|        |                                   |         \-----Ermengarde Of Lorraine
|        |                                   |                  \-----Ermengarde Of Tours
|        |                           /-----Regnier II Count Of Hainaut
|        |                          |        |                  /-----Louis I The Fair Emperor Of The West
|        |                          |        |         /-----Charles II The Bald King Of Franks, Emperor
|        |                          |        |        |         \-----Judith Of Bavaria
|        |                          |         \-----Hersent Of France
|        |                          |                 |         /-----Eudes Count Of Orleans
|        |                          |                  \-----Ermentrude Of Orleans
|        |                          |                           \-----Engeltrude
|        |                  /-----Regnier III Count Of Hainaut
|        |                 |        |                           /-----Richard Count Of Amiens
|        |                 |        |                  /-----Budwine Count Of Metz
|        |                 |        |         /-----Richard The Justiciar Duke Of Bourgogne
|        |                 |        |        |        |         /-----Boso III The Old Count Of Arles And Tuscany
|        |                 |        |        |         \-----Richilda
|        |                 |         \-----Adelaide Of Burgundy
|        |                 |                 |                  /-----Conrad I Of Burgandy, Count Of Auxerra
|        |                 |                 |         /-----Conrad II Duke Of Transjurand Burgandy
|        |                 |                 |        |         \-----Aelis Of Tours And Alsace
|        |                 |                  \-----Adelaide Of Burgundy
|        |                 |                           \-----Walrada
|        |         /-----Lambert I The Bearded Count Of Louvain
|        |        |        |                                    /-----Walbert Count In The Therwitugas
|        |        |        |                           /-----(Unk)
|        |        |        |                          |         \-----Altberg
|        |        |        |                  /-----Dietrich Count in Westfalen
|        |        |        |                 |        |         /-----Eckbert The Loyal Count In Dreini And Ittergaus
|        |        |        |                 |         \-----Matilda
|        |        |        |                 |                  \-----Ida
|        |        |        |         /-----Lambert Count Of Louvain
|        |        |        |        |         \-----Ragenhilda
|        |        |         \-----Adele Of Louvain
|        |        |                 |         /-----Richfrid Count Of Betuew And Hersinde
|        |        |                  \-----(Unk Dau) Of Betuwe
|         \-----Maud Of Louvain
|                 |                                             /-----Charles II The Bald King Of Franks, Emperor
|                 |                                    /-----Louis II The Stammerer King Of France
|                 |                                   |         \-----Ermentrude Of Orleans
|                 |                           /-----Charles III The Simple King Of Franks
|                 |                          |        |         /-----Adalhard Count Of Paris
|                 |                          |         \-----Adelaide
|                 |                  /-----Louis IV D'OUTRE-MER, King Of Franks
|                 |                 |        |                  /-----Alfred The Great King Of England
|                 |                 |        |         /-----Edward The Elder King Of England
|                 |                 |        |        |         \-----Ealhswith
|                 |                 |         \-----Edgiva
|                 |                 |                 |         /-----Aethelhelm Ealdorman Of Wiltshire
|                 |                 |                  \-----Alfflaed
|                 |                 |                           \-----Aethelgyth
|                 |         /-----Charles Duke Of Lower Lorraine
|                 |        |        |                           /-----Ludolph Duke Of Saxony
|                 |        |        |                  /-----Otto The Illustrious Duke Of Saxony
|                 |        |        |                 |         \-----Oda
|                 |        |        |         /-----Henry I The Fowler King Of The Saxons
|                 |        |        |        |        |         /-----Heinrich Of Thuringia, King Of Austriasia
|                 |        |        |        |         \-----Hedwige/Hadui/Haduich
|                 |        |        |        |                  \-----Ingeltrud Of Friuli
|                 |        |         \-----Gerberga Of Saxony
|                 |        |                 |                  /-----(Unk)
|                 |        |                 |         /-----Dietrich Count in Westfalen
|                 |        |                 |        |         \-----Matilda
|                 |        |                  \-----Mechtilde Of Westfalen
|                 |        |                           \-----Ragenhilda
|                  \-----Gerberga Of Lorraine
|                           \-----Adelheid Of Ardennes
Goisfred Lord Of Carshalton

Descendants of Goisfred Lord Of Carshalton

1. Goisfred Lord Of Carshalton m. Beatrice De MANDEVILLE

m. Beatrice De MANDEVILLE father: Geoffrey De MANDEVILLE, Baron Of Pleshy mother: Athelaise

2+ William De BOULOGNE m1. m2. (Unk1) m3. (Unk2)

2nd generation

2. William De BOULOGNE m1. m2. (Unk1) m3. (Unk2)

3 Eustace De BOULOGNE

4 Simon De BOULOGNE

5+ Rohese m. Sir Richard De LUCY, Justiciar Of England

m. (Unk1)

6+ Faramus De BOULOGNE m. Matilda

m. (Unk2)

3rd generation