Family:
Bibliography
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Ravilious, John, Melisent of Rethel and her sons. Posting to soc.genealogy.medieval (email list GEN-MEDIEVAL) on 4/15/2009. Subject: Melisent of Rethel and her son/s. Available at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/1tiYSAZPQDs/m/HGjTyC9Q4dwJ. Author address: Therav3 at aol dot com. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: John Ravilious SGM 4/15/2009-233112].
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Keats-Rohan, K.S.B., Domesday Descendants, A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166. Vol II: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum. Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk: Boydell Press, 2002. NYPL ARF 03-4178 vol 2. Corrections at http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-descendants-corrigenda.pdf Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p[0-9]*].
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Borthwick, Richard, Camville-Marmion. Posting to soc.genealogy.medieval (email list GEN-MEDIEVAL) on 4/27/1999. Subject: Camville of Clifton Campville, Staffordshire. Available at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/DJ1LHvS4gK8/m/f0BzBoR1suIJ. Author address: rgbor at cyllene dot uwa dot edu dot au. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Richard Borthwick SGM 4/27/1999].
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Watney, Vernon James, The Wallop Family and their Ancestry, Oxford:John Johnson, 1928. LDS Film#1696491 items 6-9. NYPL ARZ+ (Wallop) (Watney, V. J. Wallop family). Available at https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/213421. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Watney WALLOP #[0-9]*].
- parents:
- [Ref: John Ravilious SGM 4/15/2009-233112, Keats-Rohan DD p378,
Richard Borthwick SGM 4/27/1999],
- father:
- [Ref: Watney WALLOP #200]
Sources with Inaccurate marriage information
- names:
- Richard de CAMVILLE & Millicent (#20727) [Ref: Watney WALLOP #200],
- child:
- Isabel (#10506) who m. Robert de Harcourt [Ref: Watney WALLOP #200]
Research Notes:
I noted your post questioning the 'traditional' assignment of the issue of
Richard de Camville "I" to his 2nd wife, Millicent (or Melisende) de Rethel.
Most researchers (myself included) have left all the children as being by
Millicent, but I think you are quite correct in questioning this, and the end
result likely will be separating a number of English descendants of the
Camvilles from this long-accepted link to Carolingian ancestry.
As to Richard's son Richard "II" de Camville, the earliest mention I find
is in a charter of 'Ricardus de Camvilla' when he granted a third part of the
'dimes' of his lands at Hautot-l'Auvray to Jumieges priory, the charter being
dated at Arques, 1170 ("du 5 avril au 27 mars 1171"). Richard's son, Richard
"II", was the 3rd witness.
'Sciant presentes et posteri quod ego Ricardus de Camvilla, assensu heredum
meorum, dedi Deo et sancta Marie sanctoque Petro et monachis Gemmeticensibus
in elemosinam terciam partem decimarum que sunt in terra mea apud Hottoth (2)
et in finibus ejusdem ville, pro salute anime mee et uxoris mee Adelicie et
sequentis uxoris mee Milesente, patris et matris mee et Rogeri fratris mei et
aliorum predecessorum meorum, perpetuo possidendam. Quam donationem cum duabus
partibus ejusdem decime quas ab antiquo ex largitione predecessorum meorum
predicta ecclesia cum ecclesia ejusdem ville possederat, sigilli mei
impressione munivi et subscriptorum virorum testimonio corroboravi : Rogeri,
capellani mei ; Hunfredi, clerici mei ; Ricardi, filii mei : Gisleberti de
Cantelu ; Roberti de Coldreto ; Hugonis de Barrevilla ; Osberni de Odemara;
Ricardi Hachet ; Willelmi de Barrevilla; Stephani de Chevremont. Actum apud
Archas (1), anno ab incarnatione Domini. M. C. septuagesimo. Amen. ' [Chart.
Jumieges, II:1-2, no. CI7, cites '(Arch. de la Seine- Inferieure, fonds de
Jumieges, serie H non classee). ? B. Copie du commencement du \1u< s., dans le
Cartulaire A, p. 198, n. 336 (Ibidem). Mentionne dans : Histoire de l'abbaye
royale de Saint-Pierre de Jumieges (e.iit. abbe J. Loth), I, 278. ']
This charter serves to provide chronological context as to Richard "II" de
Camville being alive and acting as a witness in 1170, but does not prove his
maternity. This is in fact proved by a charter cited in Sir Christopher
Hatton's Book of Seals. " Ricardus de Camuill' " granted a charter to Richard
Pipard restoring his lands in Stanton Harcourt, co. Oxon. which his (Pipard's)
grandfather Sir Leger had held by the gift of Richard de Camville and Milicent
his wife, dated at Stanton (est. 1176-1191, but probably before 1176) [Loyd,
Book of Seals, p. 29, No. 428].
I had long ago assigned this charter to Richard "I", but your post prompted
me to review the actual text. The grant was made to Richard Pipard (brother of
Robert) of 'all the land which Sir Leger, their grandfather, held on the day
he died in my manor of Stanton of the gift of Richard de Camuill' my father
and Milecent' my mother' ["totam terram quam Ligerus miles auus eorundem
tenuit die qua obit in manerio meo de Stanton' donatione Ricardi de Camuill'
patris mei et Milecent' matris Mee..."] [Loyd, Book of Seals, p. 29, No. 428].
Thus we have proof that (1) Richard "II" de Camville was the son of
Millicent de Rethel, and (2) that he held lands in Stanton (Harcourt), Oxon.
It may be that his sister Isabel's maritagium was held of her brother Richard;
presumably the lordship passed to the Harcourts following Richard "II" de
Camville's death, but this requires further research. [Ref: John Ravilious SGM
4/15/2009-233112]
Pedigree of Richard De Camville
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Richard De Camville
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Alberic De VERE, Baron Of Hedingham
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(Unk Dau) De VERE
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Beatrix
Richard De Camville
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Manasses I Count Of Rethel
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Manasses II Count Of Rethel
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Manasses III Count Of Rethel
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Rogenvald
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Renaud Count Of Rheims And Roucy
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Giselbert Count Of Roucy
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Giselbert Duke Of Lorraine
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Alberade Of Lorraine
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Gerberga Of Saxony
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Judith Of Roucy
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Lutaud Count Of Macon
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Aubri Count Of Macon
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Ermengarde Of Chalon
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(Unk Dau)
| | | /-----
Renaud Count Of Rheims And Roucy
| | \-----
Ermentrude Of Roucy
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Alberade Of Lorraine
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Hugh I Count Of Rethel
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Rogenvald
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Renaud Count Of Rheims And Roucy
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Giselbert Count Of Roucy
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Regnier I Count Of Hainaut
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Giselbert Duke Of Lorraine
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Alberade Of Mons
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Alberade Of Lorraine
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Henry I The Fowler King Of The Saxons
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Gerberga Of Saxony
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Mechtilde Of Westfalen
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Yevette
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Aubri Vicount Of Narbonne
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Lutaud Count Of Macon
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Attela Of Macon
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Aubri Count Of Macon
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Manasses I Count Of Vergy, Duxin, And Chalons
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Ermengarde Of Chalon
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Ermengarde
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(Unk Dau)
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Rogenvald
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Renaud Count Of Rheims And Roucy
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Ermentrude Of Roucy
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Giselbert Duke Of Lorraine
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Alberade Of Lorraine
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Gerberga Of Saxony
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Gervais Count Of Rethel
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Milon I Seigneur De La Ferte
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Guy Seigneur De Montchery And Bray
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Ansoud I Le Riche Vicomte De Auxerer
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Ansoud Le Riche Of Paris
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Raingarde
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Thibaud Seigneur Of Montchery And Cheverouse
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Reitrude
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(Unk Dau)
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Malisinde
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William Lord Of Burea
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Hodierna De La Ferte
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Milicent Of Rethel
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Berenger Count Of Namur
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Robert I Count Of Namur
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Symphonia
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Albert I Count Of Namur
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Otto Duke Of Lorraine
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Ermengarde Of Lorraine
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Albert II Count Of Namur
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Louis IV D'OUTRE-MER, King Of Franks
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Charles Duke Of Lower Lorraine
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Gerberga Of Saxony
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Adelheid Of Lorraine
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Adelheid Of Ardennes
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Albert III Count Of Namur
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Gonzelon Count In Bidgau
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Godfrey Count Of Verdun
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Oda Of Metz
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Gothelo I Duke Of Upper And Lower Lorraine
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Hermann Billung Duke Of Saxony
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Matilda Of Saxony
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Hildegarde Of Westerbourg
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Regilinde Of Lorraine
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Conrad I Duke Of Swabia
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Conrad III Of Swabia, Count Of Ortenau
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Judith Of Marchtal
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Ita
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Frederick Count Of Verdon
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Beatrix
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Godfrey Count Of Namur
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Billung Count In Saxony
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Hermann Billung Duke Of Saxony
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Fraderuna
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Bernard I Duke Of Saxony
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Hildegarde Of Westerbourg
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Bernard II Duke Of Saxony
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Liuthar Count Of Stade
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Henry Count Of Stade
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Swanhilde
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Hildegard Of Stade
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Hildegard
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Ida Of Saxony
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Arnulf I The Bad Duke Of Bavaria
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Berthold I Margrave Of The Bavarian Nordgaus
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Judith
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Henrich Margrave Of Schweinfurt
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Lothar II Count Of Walbeck
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Eiliswintha Countess Of Walbeck
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Mathilda Of Arnsburg
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Eilika Of Schweinfurt
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Udo Count In The Wetterau
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Herbert I Count In The Kinziggau
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Cunegundis Of Vermandois
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Gerberga Of Gleiberg
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Megingoz Count Of The Avalgau
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Irmentrude
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Gerberga
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Elizabeth Of Namur
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Roger Count Of Chateau Porcien
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Sibylle Of Chateau Porcien
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Ermengarde
Descendants of Richard De Camville