Family:
Marriage:
Children:
- Richard De Redvers, Earl Of Devon Birth: 1
Death: Abt 21 Apr 1162
- Henry De REVIERS Birth: 2
Death: After 1161
- William De REVIERS, Earl Of Devon Birth: 1155
Death: Abt 8 Sep 1217
- Hawise De REDVERS Death: Abt 1215
- Adelicia De REDVERS
Bibliography
-
Cokayne, George Edward, Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom, extant, extinct, or dormant, vol 04 Dacre-Dysart. London: St Catherine Press, 1916. Reprinted (4 per page) Gloucester: A Sutton, 1982. Available at https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/271412 Vol 4 also available at http://archive.org/completepeerageo04byucoka Information from this source tagged as [Ref: CP IV [Ap][p0-9].*].
-
Keats-Rohan, K.S.B., Domesday Descendants, A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166. Vol II: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum. Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk: Boydell Press, 2002. NYPL ARF 03-4178 vol 2. Corrections at http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-descendants-corrigenda.pdf Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p[0-9]*].
-
Keats-Rohan, K.S.B., Domesday People, A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166. Vol I: Domesday Book. Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk: Boydell Press, 1999. NYPL ARF 03-4178 vol 1. Corrections in Volume II (Domesday Descendants) pp 4-5. Further corrections at http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-people-corrigenda.pdf Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Keats-Rohan DP p[0-9]*].
-
Stewart, Peter, Countess Lucy of Devon. Posting to soc.genealogy.medieval (email list GEN-MEDIEVAL) on 4/2/2007. Subject: Countess Lucy of Devon [was Re: FitzRichards]. Available at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/U8ETY0AGywU/m/P1w3usKz89IJ. Author address: p_m_stewart at msn dot com. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Peter Stewart SGM 4/2/2007-173508].
-
Richardson, Douglas, Royal Ancestry. Salt Lake City, Utah: Douglas Richardson, 2013. NYPL JFF 16-1184 v1-5 Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Richardson RoyalAnc v5p[0-9]*].
-
Weis, Frederick Lewis, Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr, David Faris, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists who came to America before 1700, 7th Edition, Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co, 1992. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Weis AR7 #[0-9][0-9]*[A-Z]*].
Sources for birth and parent Information
- parents:
- Nigel & sister of Judahel de Totnes [Ref: Keats-Rohan DP p286]
Sources with Inaccurate birth and parent Information
- parents:
- Richard fitz Gilbert de Clare (#90112) & Adelisa of Chester (#10214)
[Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p246]
Sources for burial Information
- place:
- [Ref: CP IV p312]
Sources with Information about marriage to Baldwin De REVIERS, Earl Of Devon
- names:
- [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p657],
- child:
- [Ref: CP IV AppH p673, CP IV AppI p771, CP IV p312, CP IV p315,
Keats-Rohan DD p658, Keats-Rohan DD p768, Richardson RoyalAnc v5p277, Weis AR7
#50]
Research Notes:
parentage unknown [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p657]
Both Alfred son of Judhael and Juhel son of Nigel were close to Baldwin I de
Redvers, Earl of Devon, and head of a network of western Normans in Devon, in
the 1130s and 40s; it is not unlikely that Baldwin's wife Adeliza was the
sister of Juhel son of Nigel and the niece of Judhael of Totnes [Ref:
Keats-Rohan DP p286]
On the basis of an endorsement of her only known charter, a grant to
Stoke-by-Clare priory for the souls of Earl Baldwin (her husband) and Earl
Gilbert, she has been identified as the wife of Gilbert, earl of Hertford,
though there is no other evidence that he ever married (Comp. Peer. vi, 499).
The endorsement reads: 'Carta de comitissa de Clara'. It is obvious from the
beneficiary and from the charter text that Lucy was a countess - the widow of
Earl Baldwin - and that she was a member of the de Clare family, a fact noted
acceptably and comprehensibly by a scribe of a Clare foundation when he
endorsed the charter. Her name strongly suggests as affiliation with Ranulf I
of Chester and his wife the Coutness Lucy. She should be identified as a
daughter of Richard fitz Gilbert and Adelisa of Chester, daughter of Ranulf
and Lucy, and hence sister, NOT wife, of Earl Gilbert of Hertford, who died
1152/3. Lucy's charter was doubtless given shortly after the death of her
husband in 1155, two or three years after the death of her brother who was
buried at Stoke-by-Clare priory. She must have died soon afterwards as there
is no further record of her. [Ref: Keats-Rohan DD p246]
I don't agree with this at all, and in my view Douglas Richardson's subject
line above ("C. P. Addition: Lucy, wife of Gilbert de Clare, 1st Earl of
Hertford, and Baldwin de Redvers, 1st Earl of Devon"), following Robert
Bearman in his edition of the Redvers family charters, is a more plausible
reading of the meagre evidence than Dr Keats-Rohan's assertions.
First, it is of little consequence if there is no other evidence, apart from
the possible indication of one charter, that Earl Gilbert ever married - we
have no more than this for many marriages of his rank and time, and in his
case there is no direct evidence or statement that he was never married. The
fact that CP reports this as said for lack of evidence to the contrary, while
not even mentioning the Stoke priory charter, only suggests that this document
was unknown to the writer who ought to have considered it if known.
Secondly, the peripheral conclusions in DD are not supportable: to say that
Lucy "must" have died soon after this record because there isn't another is
scarcely more logical than to say she "must" have been a girl bride in the
early 1150s because there is no other record of her beforehad (and for that
matter, since Earl Gilbert's parents were most probably both born before 1100
this obverse pointless speculation would make it less likely that Lucy was his
sister). Some countesses of the 12th century didn't leave much of a mark as
widows, and she could have survived for years after Baldwin's death for all we
know. Also, her name _might_ suggest an affiliation with the more famous
Countess Lucy, but not particularly with that lady's third husband Earl Ranulf
of Chester - she had offspring by two other men as well as by him. It seems to
me that the name Lucy could be misleading, and just a co-incidence as far as
we can tell: Earl Baldwin's brother William de Vernon was also married to a
woman named Lucy, daughter of William de Tancarville, so that this name alone
is hardly compelling evidence for a specific relationship.
Thirdly, the beneficiary and the charter text do not make it "obvious" that
Countess Lucy of Devon belonged to the Clare family, as claimed, while the
endorsement clearly enough suggests that the scribe at Stoke - who should have
known - thought she did not. The gift being to Stoke priory makes it obvious
only that Lucy had a connection to this house, but whether by birth or
marriage into the founding family cannot be discerned. Earl Gilbert's married
sister or remarried widow might equally have made a donation remembering him a
few years after his death. The text doesn't help much: it is written in the
third person, so is only a paraphrase of Lucy's actual charter, and the
relevant passage is as follows: "pro anima comitis Baldewini et comitis
Gilberti et omnium antecessorum suorum et pro seipsa et omnibus amicis suis"
(for the soul of Earl Baldwin and of Earl Gilbert and of all their
predecessors and for herself and all her loved ones) [see _Stoke by Clare
Cartulary, BL Cotton Appx. xxi_, edited by Christopher Harper-Bill & Richard
Mortimer (1982-84) part 1 p. 49 no. 69]. There is nothing here to imply a
different relationship to Gilbert from that to Baldwin, whom we know to have
been Lucy's husband.
It would be much less usual, I think, for a woman to refer to her brother in
this way than to a former husband. Gilbert's predecessors would have been his
sister's blood relatives, and in this event some language to distinguish
between them and her in-laws who were Baldwin's predecessors might be
expected. We don't know, of course, if the original charter contained more
detail, perhaps with more specific possessive pronouns making the meaning
plainer.
However, the endorsement in itself could not be plainer: Lucy if a sister of
Earl Gilbert would not have used "de Clara" as a surname, either before or
after marriage, and no scribe at Stoke would have called a daugher of the
family who was not an heiress "countess of Clare" anyway. Several other Stoke
priory charters of countesses of Clare with similar endorsments make it
perfectly clear that Lucy was supposed to have been the wife of an earl of
Clare, presumably Gilbert. Compare, for instance, op. cit. p. 47 no. 65,
charter of Countess Amice, wife of Gilbert's nephew Richard de Clare, earl of
Hertford, on folio 31r of the cartulary endorsed "Carta comitisse de Clara";
this is identical to the endorsement of Lucy's charter on folio 32r (that by
the way correctly reads "Carta comitisse de Clara...", not "de comitissa de
Clara" as misquoted in DD). If the scribe oddly thought that a sister of
Gilbert could be meaningfully called "comitissa de Clara" he might just as
well have called Amice "comitissa de Gloucestria" after her own family's
earldom. [Ref: Peter Stewart SGM 4/2/2007-173508]
Pedigree of Adelise
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Nigel
Adelise
| /-----
Alvred Lord Of Barnstaple And Totnes
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(Unk Dau) De TOTNES
Descendants of Adelise
2nd generation
3rd generation
4th generation
5th generation